Tuesday, March 20, 2007

Rediscovering the Word of God

Revival is not about discovering something "new", but to rediscover the Word of God. A friend of mine told me about a book he had read discussing the reformation in Norway. In the early 1500s Norwegians for the first time were able to read the Word in their own language. What a great thing! Today Bibles are gathering dust on bookshelves... What if we could pick up our Bible with "new" eyes and read it like we had never read it before. I think it could wake us up.

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67 Comments:

Blogger Bro Trevor said...

Yeah.... I like this, good thoughts

8:23 PM  
Anonymous Cillin said...

you should watch some debates with Christopher Hitchens, like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnMYL8sF7bQ

Religion poisons everything, religion is manmade, its the same about god

8:55 PM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

I have watched Hitchen debates before, but he didn't make much sense to me. But, I agree, religion poisons everything... for instance, the religion of evolution. Christianity however, is the antedote.

2:49 PM  
Anonymous Harald said...

To "believe" in Evolution?
There is no "FAITH" involved, fanatics just ignores the FACTS.
Its just too look up all the evidence. You dont just believe in god, you want him to exist, its wishthinking.

8:04 PM  
Anonymous Darwin said...

erlend, have you ever considered the possibility, that you are wrong?
After your statement, that evolution is a religion. its no wonder you believe in god.
Evolution is NOT a religion.
Its science, and its not "only" a theory. Its fact
Evolution happens, the theory is "why". As the theory of gravity, it happens, its FACTS, but "why" is the theory.
or that the earth revolves around the sun, thats "only" a theory too.
Do you deny that as well?
The bible contradict that also.
And this, my final conclusion.
If the bible is the word of god, wouldn't the creator of the world have some knowledge about the world?
Like, micro-organisms, that the world is round and revolves around the sun?

Hit me back

12:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yHE9Y1bdA&feature=related

10:48 AM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

Thanks for the link. Yes, Popoff and people like him have made great damage to the reputation of one of the promises for the Christian, namely healing. Fortunately, there are not only false representatives of the faith, but also real, Christian men that are called of God. William Branham was one of those men, with a ministry that remains unsurpassed in modern time.

2:53 PM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

3:17 PM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

Darwin,

Yes, I have more than once considered the possibility that I was wrong... However, I have not doubted God's Word to be true.

What you call "facts" is not truth, as science also admits, but only interpretations of observations.

There is also a great difference between the science of HOW things work and HOW things got here. We only disagree on the latter question.

You ask, "If the bible is the word of god, wouldn't the creator of the world have some knowledge about the world?" He does. However, you must keep in mind that the Bible is not a science textbook but a book about the Creator.

:)

3:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

The god in te old testament suck, ALL healing is BULLSHIT, some based upon placebo, some healers are just frauds, like John Williams can NOT talk to the dead.

Im GLAD that the bible is just fiction, and that God does not excist, i would join ANY other religion that Christianity, its the worst idead ever.

11:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear anonymous,

If I am not mistaken that is a direct quote from Mr. Richard Dawkins, a man who knows a lot about biology, but unfortunately less about God.

Although I consider your comment void of tact and tone I will answer briefly.

Let me just say that anyone claiming that healing does not happen have come too late.

Myself and thousands of others have and are experiencing it on a regular basis.

It is not a question of "does it happen?", but a question of "why does it happen?", to which the answer for my part is, because the person who is healed BELIEVES it will happen.

You write that some healers are frauds. Yes, some are. I agree. However, some are also real. You see, for there to be a fraud, there must be an original. Frauds try to copy the real ones, so the real ones do exist.

I am glad that the Bible is not fiction. It constantly proves itself to be true because it delivers what it promises. This is evidence enough.

From what you write it is very likely that you have not experienced real Christianity, but only impersonations of it. It's a religious jungle out there, and a lot of quasi-Christianity that goes around. How to tell? It's shallow, doesn't work and lacks back bone. Real Christianity is powerful, deep and life-changing. Every day.

Erlend

8:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Frauds try to copy the real ones, so the real ones do exist."

Or one fraud started it, and more frauds copied it.
Common, everybody wants money here, have they ever tested William Branham, or did he just "heal" from a stage or some crap like that.
I have seen David Blaine levitate, but that does not mean he levitates, its a trick. He could easily been mistaken for an Angel or more likely, jesus

2:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear anonymous,

Yes, money has been a problem in religious circles. I understand that you have noticed this as well as I.

Well, William Branham was a special man. In fact, he was offered millions of dollars on several occasions, but he turned ALL the offers down.

He did not want to take credit for something that God had done, and therefore refused to accept the money that was offered to him often by rich people whose wives had been healed of cancer etc.

William Branham grew up in poverty and lived his life more or less poor, although he had the chance to fall for the temptation of money which so many do.

If he was tested? Boy, yes he was. By the FBI and the likes. It always ended up with his accusers being exposed in the meetings.

Sometimes people said they had a certain disease when in fact they didn't, they were well, only trying to expose him as a fraud.

Every time God showed him this in a vision and they were exposed. Denying this often resulted in the person getting the disease they said they had. This is just what happened in the book of Acts, when the couple who lied to Peter fell dead right there and then.

3:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.forgottenword.org/branham.html

12:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

so, what science have is billions of observations and theories, if tested, never fails.
And what you have is a dude spreading his own private illusions.
hmmm, i wonder who's right.

And another thing, healing works in all religions, that you and your friends have delusions in private doesnt count as ANY evidence for ANYTHING.

2:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/hoax.html

i Bet all my money on that Branham was a fraud.

6:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reply to the three last comments:

http://www.forgottenword.org/branham.html

I have read almost all criticism available about William Branham. Much of it is misrepresentations and lies. What is it in particular that you found interesting in this article?

so, what science have is billions of observations and theories, if tested, never fails.
And what you have is a dude spreading his own private illusions.
hmmm, i wonder who's right.


There is no conflict between science in general and William Branham.

What happened in his ministry has nothing to do with the theory of evolution, which is about what might have happened xxxxx years ago.

Furthermore, Branham did not spread his own private illusions, but he spread the Word of God. If you took the time to look into it you would see that his visions and prophecies always were true, that thousands upon thousands were healed (sometimes miraculously), and that he lived what he preached.

And another thing, healing works in all religions, that you and your friends have delusions in private doesnt count as ANY evidence for ANYTHING.

Yes, healing always works based on faith. That is evidence that faith works, my friend.

Concerning the "billions of observations" you are putting your trust in, I doubt very much that you yourself have made these observations. You have faith in what other people have found out for you.

In that case you're in the same boat as many religious people.

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/hoax.html

i Bet all my money on that Branham was a fraud.


Is this bet based on the article by Mr. Reckart? Which one of his claims did you fall for? I have communicated with the author of that article by e-mail and the hate and contempt he shows for Christians that differ with him was very apparent and not very Christian like.

Erlend

8:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"There is no conflict between science in general and William Branham."

Of course there is..

He "ignores" the laws of nature.
whats most likely, the laws of nature is false, or that Branham lied.. (hmmmmmm)

10:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Concerning the "billions of observations" you are putting your trust in, I doubt very much that you yourself have made these observations. You have faith in what other people have found out for you.

Visit a Scientific University and talk with the expert, let them SHOW you the evidence..

10:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

He "ignores" the laws of nature.
whats most likely, the laws of nature is false, or that Branham lied.. (hmmmmmm)


I would admire anyone who in fact is able to ignore the laws of nature with success by applying the laws of the supernatural.

Erlend

11:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AHAHAHAHAHA

The supernatural, what a joke.
heard about James Randi?
He's had a challenge ongoing for 40 years, if anyone can show him that they have supernatural powers, they get 1 million dollars..
NOBODY has ever won the prize, i guess that says something about the suprenatural, its only in our imagination, but can easily be faked.

11:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No Christian would ever answer to a challenge like that although they could have done it. Healing and the supernatural is not entertainment, but promises for the believer. God doesn't show off his powers for a mocker like James Randi.

However, William Branham was offered over a million dollars from a oil magnat whose wife had been healed from cancer after Rev. Branham prayed for her. He refused to take the money.

You can laugh all you want of the supernatural, but thousands upon thousands have experienced it and are experiencing it every day.

It surprises me therefore that people who claim to have a scientific approach to things seems to demand visible evidence for the invisible, i.e. the spiritual world and God.

The only proof God gives it what he gives to the individual. But in the case of William Branham he also proved himself in various other ways.

Erlend

12:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Furthermore, Branham did not spread his own private illusions, but he spread the Word of God"

Thats a private illusion he had.

"Yes, healing always works based on faith. That is evidence that faith works, my friend."

So to say that branham heals people is likewise valid to say that a new age fanatic healed me. Nothing special at all, clearly.

"I would admire anyone who in fact is able to ignore the laws of nature with success by applying the laws of the supernatural."

i doubt that he ignored the laws of nature, then youre obligated to show valid proof, because that my friend is a scientific question, not only a faith based one.

Over to "Believethesign"

Common, the cloud where you see Jesus, it could be ALL the fictional characters you dont believe in, like Aslan, Zeus, Muhammed, The Flying Spaghetti Monster or ANY. The only miracle is that we havent seen more jesus clouds. I see hamburgers, pigs, cars and boats everyday in the sky.

The Picture of branham and "angel" above his head, aha. Thats hilarious, you can CLEARLY see that the thing is not above his head, but quite some meters behind him, maybe a god damn lamp?

Dont tell me you also believe in exorcism as well, then i just gotta break this shit up to you.

8:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous,

The Word of God is not a private illusion, but a divine authority accepted by millions of people worldwide. It not only shows what has happened, but it is also showing us what is going to happen. That is more than science can ever hope to do.

So to say that branham heals people is likewise valid to say that a new age fanatic healed me. Nothing special at all, clearly.

William Branham did not heal people. God did. Faith is a universal, spiritual law, a force that can be operated by anyone, also non-Christians. However, some people are gifted by God in ways that allow them to operate more successfully than others in this realm.

i doubt that he ignored the laws of nature, then youre obligated to show valid proof, because that my friend is a scientific question, not only a faith based one.

You have every right to doubt anything. However, you can not expect physical evidence for the invisible. There are two scientific evidences for the supernatural element in William Branham's ministry, namely the cloud and the pillar of fire.

Common, the cloud where you see Jesus, it could be ALL the fictional characters you dont believe in, like Aslan, Zeus, Muhammed, The Flying Spaghetti Monster or ANY.

Well, I could also say that the observations you believe are evidence for evolution could have been planted there by aliens before human beings came to existence. I do not believe in Aslan, Zeus and Muhammed, and neither the flying spaghetti monster (no one believes in the latter) and I do not think you do either. None of these guys have left any evidence for their existence anywhere near the evidence that Jesus Christ has left.

The only miracle is that we havent seen more jesus clouds. I see hamburgers, pigs, cars and boats everyday in the sky.

It is evident that you have not done your homework. The miracle is not that the cloud resembles the profile of Jesus and, when turned, the four living creatures described throughout the Bible.

This cloud is STILL a mystery to scientists. Why? Because no clouds can form in the altitude where this cloud appeared, 35 kilometres above sealevel. This high no water drops or ice particles can exist:

http://www.spokenwordchurch.com/themessageresourcelibrary/Articles/Cloud%20Article%20-%20Science%20Magazine%20Cloud%20Article%20April%201963.pdf

The Picture of branham and "angel" above his head, aha. Thats hilarious, you can CLEARLY see that the thing is not above his head, but quite some meters behind him, maybe a god damn lamp?

Again you have not done your background check. The photo and the site was investigated by an investigator who worked for the FBI. The light appears right above his head (you can see the reflection in his hair) and was seen by a great number of the people who was seated in the auditorium. If it was a lamp (silly explanation) it would have been easily refuted since the event this happened in was held by a critic of William Branham. You can read the report here of the photo that also remains a scientific mystery:

http://en.believethesign.com/index.php?title=Image:George_Lacy_Doc2.jpg

(Now, if you want to answer this post with a comment I would appreciate that you do so in a friendly and gentleman-like way. Although we disagree we must be able to communicate with respect for one another.)

Erlend

9:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

FBI investigated it 30 years ago or so, i dont know
Im positive that scientist have found answers, science is renewed every day.
But if all you have is the cloud and the picture, you must have ALOT of faith, i praise you for that, but not for your beliefs, fanatic fundamentalists are dangerous, i hope you dont plan to bomb abort-clinics or laboratories working with stem-cells research.
Like some of your "brothers" does.

12:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear anonymous,

Thousands of critics are eager to discredit William Branham and they wouldn't miss one chance to prove him wrong.

Still, noone has proved the photography to be a fraud and I do not know of any new, scientific discoveries in the validation of photographies. The cloud also remains a mystery to the world...

The silence from the scientific world around these phenomenons is proof enough... it actually happened, contrary to the laws of nature.

So I do not only have a spiritual reason to believe, but I also have a scientific reason to believe, and if you believe in science as my impression is, you cannot ignore this.

That said, there is a lot more in the ministry of William Branham that is supernatural and hard to explain.

I simply believe he is the prophet (like John) that God promised to send with a message to warn the people before the second coming of Christ, an event that Christians have been expecting for 2,000 years.

Concerning fanatic fundamentalists... Christians are not at all dangerous, even though they believe in following the example of Jesus Christ and are stamped as fundamentalists for that reason.

A Christian would never bomb an abortion clinic or a laboratory working with stem-cells research. Our rule is to do for others as you want others to do for you, and to love our enemies as ourselves.

Christianity in its purest form is peaceful. The religion of the "brothers" you are referring to is violent in its purest form. They cannot even be compared.

Erlend

12:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"A Christian would never bomb an abortion clinic or a laboratory working with stem-cells research."

they have already done it, case closed.

1:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/08/30/massachusetts-bombing-at-stem-cell-lab.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n5_v115/ai_20334585

both acts performed by Christians.
One by the group called Army of God.

Whats next? Killing all the atheists, science professors and non-christians? Wake up, of course the christians will feel the pressure from us atheists, and then they will retaliate, im sure about it.

its a war on science too, but we retaliate with words and reason, not with bombs and terror

2:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any person can wear the "brand" Christian. But if you believe in bombing abortion clinics or laboratories you are not a Christian, only a religious terrorist.

Christianity is defined by the doctrine found in the Bible, more specifically the teachings of the new covenant.

Acts of terrorism like the ones you refer to can only be performed and condoned by people who do not believe (or do not follow) the Word of God.

Case closed! ;)

Erlend

2:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that people understand the Bible on different ways, and therefore they do stuff that "normal" christians doesn't do.

Some christian people, that have very strong christian faith, does not dance because they think that it is "against the rules".

And some people bomb abortion clinis because they think that it is against their interpretation of the Bible.

11:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, I must of course agree with you on the fact that people interpret the Scripture in different ways.

However, there is no Scriptural basis for a Christian to bomb an abortion clinic. If you disgree with me, please show me where this is found.

But, I can reassure you that you will not find it, for it would go against the basic principles of Christianity.

My conclusion is therefore that people who commit acts of terrorism in the name of God must get their blessings to carry out these acts from another source than the Bible, and from another God than the Christian God.

That should be a reassuring thing to all of us to know. Christianity is peaceful in its nature, perverted Christianity is not. And history has seen much of the latter, unfortunately.

Erlend

8:17 AM  
Anonymous pAtheist said...

If you read the bible you can get an excuse to kill ANYONE.
The old testament is full of gruesome sexiest, evil texts and verses. Some defends slavery, some adultery, theft and murder.

Levitacus is a good example.
"and god told moses to stone the heretics to death".

If people fly plains into buildings, bomb abortion clinics and stem-cell labs, some of them thinks that they do exactly as they are told.

Jesus also had immoral teachings, its true.
He said, "let the innocent throw the first stone". This could be used to support, i dont know, DEATH PENALTY maybe?

I will throw in some wicked "quotes" from the old testament, where God striclty COMMANDS us to KILL.

"Any of the people of Israel, or of the aliens who reside in Israel, who give any of their offspring to Molech shall be put to death; the people of the land shall stone them to death. I myself will set my face against them, and will cut them off from the people, because they have given of their offspring to Molech, defiling my sanctuary and profaning my holy name. And if the people of the land should ever close their eyes to them, when they give of their offspring to Molech, and do not put them to death, I myself will set my face against them and against their family, and will cut them off from among their people, them and all who follow them in prostituting themselves to Molech.
If any turn to mediums and wizards, prostituting themselves to them, I will set my face against them, and will cut them off from the people. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy; for I am the Lord your God. Keep my statutes, and observe them; I am the Lord; I sanctify you. All who curse father or mother shall be put to death; having cursed father or mother, their blood is upon them.

If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. [Leviticus, chapter 20] "

We are supposed to kill everyone who has cursed his father or mother, everyone who has committed adultery, and every homosexual.
IF we follow this words


"When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. But if the slave declares, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out a free person’, then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt unfairly with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out without debt, without payment of money.

Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death. If it was not premeditated, but came about by an act of God, then I will appoint for you a place to which the killer may flee. But if someone wilfully attacks and kills another by treachery, you shall take the killer from my altar for execution.

Whoever strikes father or mother shall be put to death.

Whoever kidnaps a person, whether that person has been sold or is still held in possession, shall be put to death. Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.

When individuals quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or fist so that the injured party, though not dead, is confined to bed, but recovers and walks around outside with the help of a staff, then the assailant shall be free of liability, except to pay for the loss of time, and to arrange for full recovery.

When a slave-owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. [Exodus, chapter 21]"

This advocates slavery!

"I desire, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument; also that the women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes, but with good works, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God. Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. [1 Timothy, chapter 2]"


I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man." That is totally sexist!



There you have it, if we should follow the bible, we would have to kill over 50% of the world.

HMMMM! You say christianity is not dangerous? If Christianity didnt exist, people wouldnt be SOO fanatic to kill the owner of a abortion clinic

Erlend, i dont belive you are one of those, but, i say that your religion almost exceeds the teachings of Islam.
Christianity causes confusion, its child abusive and terrorizing.

10:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear patheist,

Let me share with you a quote from a sermon preached by William Branham in 1961, called "The Church Choosing Law For Grace":

Now, that's a solemn thing; we should think on it for a little while. Little did they believe that there was the waters of Marah laid before them, or the wilderness of Sin, or the Mount Sinai, or the Kadesh-Barnea, where they totally failed God...

When from Kadesh there was only eleven days to the crossing. They couldn't believe it, because they had already seen so many great things done. They were sure that they were in the will of God. Just as our fathers was a few years ago.

And they were, but there's where they made their great fatal mistake. They...

The greatest mistake that Israel ever made was when it renounced grace and accepted law.

It made its greatest mistake in Exodus 19, was one of the fatal mistakes that Israel made.

The covenant that God made with Abraham was completely grace. But grace had provided for them a deliverer, a prophet, a sacrificial lamb.

It had provided the greatest revival they'd ever had.

And yet, they wasn't satisfied with it. They wanted something that they could argue about. They wanted a place where they could have something to do into it.


That's when God gave them the law. It was not God's perfect will, but the people desired it.

Grace was His will, and it came with Jesus Christ!

No, he did not endorse the stoning of the woman caught in adultery, but He knew that his statement would disarm them all... for who can say they are without sin?

However, we are not living under the law anymore as Christians, but we're living under grace.

Therefore Christians cannot apply laws of stoning for instance.

Christianity is as I have previously stated the MOST peaceful religion there is and it leaves no room for confusion concerning that point.

The only reason people are confused is because they do not bother studying Christianity and the Bible.

Erlend

12:07 PM  
Anonymous patheist said...

"The only reason people are confused is because they do not bother studying Christianity and the Bible."

or that they study it too much, thats when the confusion starts, which part should i take litteraly, and which part should i throw out?

atheists choose to throw out ALL of them, and that makes us more peacefull than christians.
we do NOT bomb laboratories because of "confusion"

1:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear patheist,

One must read the Bible in context. That's where people who bomb laboratories in the name of God have missed it. They are misusing the Scriptures for their own political gain.

Studying the Bible too much is hardly the case for these people, who are nothing but religious terrorists misusing and misrepresenting the Word of God with shallow interpretations that even a superficial study of the Word in context would reveal as false.

Christians (nor the Bible) cannot be blamed for that no more than you and other atheists can be blamed for the natural selection motivated shootings on Columbine High, which was the result of people who misunderstood (or misused) Darwin's theory.

To say that Christianity in its purest form is peaceful is in fact only an understatement. Christianity even goes so far as to encourage believers to do good to them that hate us and to love our enemies like ourselves. That principle is not found in any atheist litterature I know of.

I want to add that I respect that you have a different view of the big questions in life than I have, and I understand why you ask the questions you have asked. They are good questions that require good answers. So, I hope some of what I am writing makes sense to you.

P.S. The other day I ordered the books "God is not great" and "The God Delusion". They arrived in my mailbox today. I would like to read them thoroughly this summer.

Erlend

2:33 PM  
Anonymous Patheist said...

As Hitchens said, "One of the things i dont like about Christianity, is that it tells me to love my enemies, i dont do that, and i dont want you to love them for me either."

Read it with a funny undertone..

I hope you like the books god is not great, and be agnostic while you read it, not christian.

2:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear patheist,

That IS interesting! Finally a moral difference (loving your enemies) between Christians and atheists (well, I can't speak for all, but at least for Mr. Hitchens) that is easy to spot.

And that's also the trait by which Jesus Christ said people would separate Christians from non-believers, that they have love for each other and for their enemies.

I will of course try to put myself in the position of an unbeliever when I read the books, and I think it will cause me to dig deeper in what I believe in, and eventually strengthen my faith.

Erlend

2:58 PM  
Anonymous patheist said...

I dont think all christians love their enemies, thats just ridiculous.

Nobody loves their enemies, i dont really think all christian americans love the terrorist who bombed 9/11

3:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear patheist,

I cannot speak for all, but I do. Although it can be hard some times it is necessary to be able to separate the person from the acts he or she commits.

There is always hope, even for the worst person. Love can help them turn around and start receiving the inspiration that can change their lives.

Erlend

3:27 PM  
Anonymous Patheist said...

"If it wasnt for religion, we would have wicked people doing wicked things and good people doing good things, but for good people to do wicked things, it takes religion"

I Really think that the world would been better of without religion, but people need hope, even if its a false one.

3:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear patheist,

"If it wasnt for religion, we would have wicked people doing wicked things and good people doing good things, but for good people to do wicked things, it takes religion"

I agree - if one defines religion as truth perverted.

Pure Truth will make people do good things.

True Christians shall be known by their fruits:

Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.

I Really think that the world would been better of without religion, but people need hope, even if its a false one.

Yes, it would. Yes, it sure is a false hope.

Truth however...

Erlend

8:23 AM  
Anonymous Patheist said...

"Yes, it sure is a false hope."
What exactly do you mean by that.

and you say that God is the truth?
you KNOW he exists? Then youre just a wacko, not offencively speaking (or maybe)

Bless you, we will let you have your faith, but please keep it private, and do not impose against the teachings of evolution, and bombing abortion clincs, that just slows down the progress of technology.

evolution is a fact, you dont need to be an atheist to believe in it, you can perhaps believe that god helped it over the hard parts, but please. If you ignore the facts, do NOT inflict others on your Illusions, thats what im really conserned about. Teaching intelligent design in school, its rubbish.

12:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Patheist,

"Yes, it sure is a false hope."
What exactly do you mean by that.


Religion (what a broad term) in general is a false hope.

and you say that God is the truth? you KNOW he exists? Then youre just a wacko, not offencively speaking (or maybe)

It is certainly better to be called a wacko for claiming to know that God exists, than to be a rude atheist without manners that claim the opposite.

Bless you, we will let you have your faith, but please keep it private,

I am sorry to disappoint you, but I won't. Your statement makes it sound like you are one of those who oppose free speech. Am I right?

and do not impose against the teachings of evolution

The evolution doctrine is not a holy cow for me. I will speak against it whenever I can.

and bombing abortion clincs, that just slows down the progress of technology.

Thanks for the advice, did you learn this from experience? ;)

evolution is a fact, you dont need to be an atheist to believe in it,

Evolution is a theory based on observations that are interpreted into facts. I know this.

I also agree with the theory to a certain extent, i.e. evolution on a micro level.

you can perhaps believe that god helped it over the hard parts, but please. If you ignore the facts, do NOT inflict others on your Illusions, thats what im really conserned about. Teaching intelligent design in school, its rubbish.

I appreciate your concern, but what you call facts are observations that could just as well be (and are, in my opinion) proof for creation.

I haven't seen all these evidences and neither have you. You chose to believe in the interpretations of some scientists. Well, that is up to you.

I do not believe that we came from a rock that turned into a bio-soup that once upon a time came alive. Please respect that I do not believe in such a fairytale.

I believe that God has proved Himself more than ever before in our generation. Even scientifically, as I have shown you.

Erlend

2:27 PM  
Anonymous Patheist said...

"Please respect that I do not believe in such a fairytale."

We have evidence for that fairytale, what do you have?
oohh, a picture of a cloud and a photo of a man with a light behind him. you really have a strong case there mate. Case closed right?

Read the book, unweaving the rainbow, written by Dawkins, he will show you how the evidence for evolution does NOT point towards creation.


Please respect that I do not believe in such a fairytale.

Angel wars, burning bushes, Noah's Ark, Moses parting the red sea, the ten plagues, Mount Sinai.
THAT my friend, is fairytales.

3:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Patheist,

There is no evidence for the fairytale of the organic soup that suddenly came alive. But, if there ever was such a soup, somebody must have made it. ;)

Erlend

3:48 PM  
Anonymous Patheist said...

you didnt answer my comment, there IS billions of pieces of evidence for both evolution and big bang, you just cant ignore it, its overwhelming..

5:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Patheist,

I have answered more of your comments than you have answered mine. But as I said, the evidences of a big bang (I do not doubt there was a big bang) and evolution might just as well point to a creation.

I am also reading the book "Darwin's Black Box" written by a professor of biochemics, Michael Behe. Have you read it?

However, I do not believe we will come to an agreement here and now. Have a nice weekend and enjoy the summer! :)

Erlend

8:12 AM  
Anonymous Patheist said...

the truth is not democratic. Evolution do not require you to believe. And why do you read about darwins theory? You know that we have found millions of pieces of evidence since the observations of him right?

And science is more than observation.
Its observation, hypothesis testing, debating and then with this body of knowledge we call it a theory, or as we call it outside the scientific language, a fact.

9:45 AM  
Anonymous Patheist said...

Ever heard of mount improbable?
its a metaphor by Richard Dawkins.
Whats most likely, Jumping to the top of a mountain in one step?
Or taking the other way around and walking up in a slow pace?

The jump is creation, and the slow pace is evolution. Good comparison anyhow.

9:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Patheist,

Both creation and evolution points back to a "jump" so to speak.

At some point in history matter suddenly appeared from non-matter.

Not very logical. But it must have happened.

I happen to believe that it didn't happen by itself. That would indeed be a mount improbable.

Erlend

1:20 PM  
Anonymous Patheist said...

who created the creator?

11:07 AM  
Blogger Erlend said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:25 AM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

Noone

11:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ha ha ha ha!
noone? so, he has ALWAYS excisted?
hmm, that doesnt sound logical, now does it?

Dont try to bring logic into religion, thats ridicolous

4:56 PM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

Well, the word "logical" is just a way to describe human beings capacity to figure out things in a make-sense way, peabrains as we are. We KNOW that the big bang and the origin of time, space, and matter is NOT logical. Why should the cause (God) be?

8:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The God in the bible is not logical, and its arrogant to believe that he have had you in mind since the beginning of time.

9:20 AM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

Do you believe that the universe with time, matter and space came into existence at one point of time in history?

10:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well, we dont know how we got here, but creationist stories are ridicoulous. Scientists are the first to admit that we dont know, but we are working on it. So in the meantime, believe what you want, but it doesnt make it true.

But you simply cant ignore what we already know.

11:15 AM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

Hmmmm... If science ever finds an answer to that question I'll give it a look, but as long as science doesn't know I will trust my sixth sense of faith.

But yes, it is rational to believe in the existence of God. If the universe had a beginning it must have had a cause. What is that cause?

I believe the cause is God, and that He created time, space and matter.

But who created God, you ask. Well, God is eternal. This is really not a problem, for eternity has to exist if time ever began with the creation of the universe.

I'll close with saying that faith really can't be proven scientifically, and that is the whole point of faith. It is the evidence of things unseen, and people who do not believe simply have not got that sense working in their lives.

However, I do not look down upon them for that reason. Many of them are my friends and I love them as much as anyone else.

11:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

if one part of the bible is wrong, you have to discard the rest as well. its not trustworthy. And Genesis is wrong, so discard it for crying out loud. you want it to be true, belief isnt enough.

11:50 AM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

Of course, either ALL is right or ALL is wrong. However, I do not believe there are any wrongs in Genesis. What I do believe though, is that it is a symbolic book, much like the book of Revelations.

8:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So, what shall you take litterary and what should you throw out?

1:57 PM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

You should not throw anything out. Either it is symbolic or it is literary. Sometimes both. However, the Bible teaches that the Scripture is of no private interpretation.

The reason people go bananas with the Bible is lack of correct interpretation. That is why God has sent prophets to reveal His Word. This is a principle that is found in Amos 3:7.

The atrocities committed by the state church in the dark ages was a result of a wrong interpretation of the Bible. But, God has promised a restoration back to the original understanding Christians had 2000 years ago.

3:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When god tells people to kill, its not interpretated wrong, the people are doing exactly as they are told.
The old testament is full of wicked texts. And if the bible is the word of god, all christians should do his bidding. im glad they dont, i would have been killed a long time ago.

8:27 PM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

You do not understand the Bible nor do you have an understanding of how God interprets His Word. A further debate is unfortunately useless.

2:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"nor do you have an understanding of how God interprets His Word"

so, you know how god interprets his word? how, why and since when?

6:28 PM  
Anonymous Erlend said...

Yes, God uses prophets to interpret His Word AND He interprets It also by making it come to pass.

According to Jesus only Christians (i.e. born again believers) can see the Kingdom. To see the Kingdom means to understand it, see?

I do not say that you cannot have a superficial and intellectual understanding of the content, but a deeper understanding comes only through faith and the new birth.

An experience that is open to all. I hope you will experience it some day. Maybe today? :)

11:38 AM  

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